Meta 5.5 + Marzocchi All Mountain 2

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[twin]

the sl will work like a charm since it doesn't have on the fly adjustability, but can be preset at a certain height, say matching other 5.5 forks instead of full blown out 6. hm, poor sentence there but you get the point. bikes with on the fly adjusaibility like a talas one can tune the bike to better fit the surroundings - or in other words change the head angle and amount of travel to what's preferable. this is not possible to do with the all mountain sl's, or didn't use to be possible anyway. the 07 one has on the fly adjustability though, like a talas, and works like a charm. a 06 doesn't, but can still be tuned to fit. get what i'm saying here (in a very awkward manner) ?

[Te Bheag]

  Cheers Eric & Twin. I will adjust the travel today and see what happens. My confusion has arisen from having to pump up the 'negative' pressure to reduce travel... and to me that suggested that the travel, but not length changed. 

[twin]

well, good luck on the adjustments. i used to have the 05 sl's and they were a bit cumbersome to adjust. drop all the air out of the tst and par chambers when doing the adjustments to the  positive and negative air, if they are seperate, as it will then be easier to find the correct sag and the feel you like. then use especially the par and to some extent the tst to fine tune how it feels. good luck.

if anybody has differing opinions on how to do the above mentioned procedure, please now would be a good time to let us know

[Te Bheag]

Thanks Twin. I'm just about to play with it all. I will drop the air as noted, get the sag right and then play with the PAR & TST settings. The Marzo manual is a work of pure fiction, so it's great to get some guidance...

[Te Bheag]

Whilst I fettle & whittle & furtle my All Mountain SL's, here's some Crown to Axle lengths shamelessly borrowed from another forum (itself borrowed from somewhere ese) They seem reasonably accurate E&OE  :

CANNONDALE
leftymax 140 spv : 510 mm
leftyspeed DLR 110mm: 480mm
superfatty 80mm: 478mm
Fatty 50mm: 448mm

 FOX
vanilla R 2005: 510 mm
Talas RL 2004: 490 mm
Talas RLC 2006: 503mm
Talas RLC 2007: 511mm
vanilla 2004 un peu moins de 500 mm
Float 80mm : 451mm
100mm : 471mm
36 Talas(2006) en 150mm : 535mm
                     en 110mm : 495mm
36VAN RC2 (2006) en 160: 545mm
40 (2006) : en 178mm : 546mm
                en 203mm : 571mm

KOWA
80 Cs (2006) en 100 mm: 470 mm

MARZO
Z1 130mm drop off QR20: 503mm (2001)
Z1 FR SL (2003) 530 mm
Z1 FR 130 (2005): 518mm
Z1 FR 150 (2005): 538 mm
Z1 MCR (2001)130: 510mm
Z1 LIGHT ETA 150mm (2006): 538.5mm
Z3 Flylight 100mm (2000): 500mm
Z5 air en 100 (2001): 478 mm
888 (2005) en 200mm, 605mm
888 (2005) en 170mm, 575mm
888 (2006) en 200mm: 579mm
66 (2005) en 170mm, 595mm
66 (2005) en 150mm, 575mm
66 (2006) en 170mm: 555mm
66 (2006) en 150mm: 535mm
Marathon S millésime 2002 100mm -> 480 mm
Marathon S 120mm (2005): 495mm
Marathon XC 120mm 2005: 495mm
MX Comp en 105mm: 478 mm
MX Comp en 105mm (2006): 484.3mm
MX Comp en 120 mm : 493 mm
MX Comp en 120mm (2006): 499mm
MX Comp en 85 mm : 458 mm
MZ comp en 100 mm: 488 mm
EXR PRO en 105 mm: 478 mm
EXR PRO en 120 mm: 493 mm
all mountain 110 498mm
all mountain 130: 518 mm
all mountain 150 (2005): 538 mm
all mountain 150 (2006): 541.5mm
DJ2 2004 = 500mm
DJ en 100 mm (2005): 488 mm
DIRT JUMPER (2006) en 100mm: 483.5mm
shiver sc 120 mm : 510 mm
shiver DC: 572mm
Junior T 2003/2004/2005: 555mm
Junior T 2001 = 540mm
Monster en 200 mm: 595 mm

MARZO 2007:
Corsa WC 80mm:464mm (déport 44mm)
Corsa WC 100mm: 474mm
XC700 SL: 464-504mm (déport 34,5mm)
XC600: 474mm
XC500: 474mm
Z1 RC2: 538mm
Drop Off 3: 538mm
AM SL 1: 511-551mm (déport 44.7mm)
AM 2: 531mm
AM 3: 531mm
DJ 1: 483mm (déport 44,5mm)
DJ 2: 483mm
DJ 3: 483mm
Dirt Jam Pro: 483mm
66 SL 1 ATA: 525-565mm (déport 44mm)
66 RC2X: 565mm
66 RC2 ETA: 565mm
888 WC: 584mm (déport43.5mm)
888 SL ATA: 554-584mm
888 RC2X VA:, 584mm
888 RV: 584mm
Super T RCV: 574mm
MX Pro ETA: 508mm (déport 44,3mm)
MX Pro ETA: 488mm
MX Pro: 488mm
MX Pro: 468mm
MX Comp 1": 468mm
MX Pro I.S.: 488mm

MAVERICK
Duc 32 : 517 mm

ROCK SHOX
pike: 517mm (deport 42mm)
Lyrik en 160mm: 545mm +/- 5mm
Domain en 180mm: 565mm +/- 5mm
Totem en 180mm: 565mm +/- 5mm
Reba 85mm: 458mm (déport 39mm)
Reba WC en 85mm : 465mm
Reba en 100 mm : 473 mm (déport 39mm)
Reba WC en 100 mm : 480mm
Reba 115mm: 488mm (déport 39mm)
Reba 29" 100mm: 510mm (déport 39mm)
Boxxer 04 (178mm de débattement), 555mm en position basse
Boxxer 2005 race, team et world cup en 203mm : 570mm en position basse
Psylo SL uturn : 510 mm
Duke XC 80 mm 2004 : 460 mm
Duke C (année inconnue) 80 mm de dbt : 440 mm
Pilot en 100mm : 475mm
SID RACE 80mm: 442mm
SID SL 2001 80mm: 450mm
SID 1998 63mm : 435mm
Revelation 130mm (2006): 508mm (déport 39mm)
Revelation 100mm (2006): 478mm (déport 39mm)

PACE
Distance RC 39 modèle 2005 en 100 mm: 470mm
RC41 Fighter en 150mm 2006: 524mm

MANITOU
Axel Elite 100mm : 480mm
Skareb Super TPC 100mm (modéle 2005): 475 mm
Black Platinum (Reglage maximum):515mm
black comp 2002: 475mm en debat 100mm
Stance Flow:502/532mm
Stance Kingpin: 540mm
Stance Static 80mm: 460mm
Stance Static 100mm: 480mm
Dorado DH: 542.5mm
Sherman Breakout Plus: 512/552mm
Sherman Flick Plus: 492/532mm
Sherman Firefly Plus: 492/532mm
Sherman Jumper: 455mm
Sherman Jumper 110mm : 480mm
Sherman Slider Plus: 540mm
Nixon Platinum/Super/Elite: 518mm
Minute 1/2/3: 505mm
Minute 3 (en 100mm): 470 mm
Millenium: 505mm
Splice 100 mm: 505mm
Splice Elite 130mm : 525mm
R7 (2006) en 100mm: 470mm

SUNTOUR
XCP-E en 100mm = 480mm
XCP-DRL en 80mm: 460mm
XC-50: 455mm
xcp 75: 465mm
ncx-d en 80 : 450 mm (2005)

MAGURA
Big Ego en 185 mm : 580 mm
Thor en 150 mm : 535 mm
Ronin en 110 mm : 483 mm
Phaon en 125 mm : 504 mm
Asgard en 100 mm : 476 mm
Asgard en 80 mm : 456 mm
Vidar en 80 mm : 456 mm
Quake 115 double té: 525 mm

FOURNALES
Cobra XC: 451 à 454 mm

SUNN
Carving (1998): 510mm

I hope this helps someone!

[twin]

hehe, i just asked about the ac height of a 08 66 ata yesterday, though in a different forum hehe

you have the tst5 right? apparently messing with the pressure in tst2 chambers is a big no go

[Te Bheag]

Hiya Twin, don't you just lurve t'interweb? It's from MTBR, though I'm merely a guest.

I am having some issues now... I let all the air out of TST and PAR, then took the travel down to 130mm by pumping the negative Doppio air to 15 BAR... looked OK, but I couldn't get the sag to set correctly... do you suspect a TST issue? What's the no-no?

I currently have a completely deflated All Mountain Sl sat on the bike and a head-scratching Te Bheag sat next to it... i think I'll pump the negative air to 10 BAR (140mm), put a little pressure 2.5 to 3 BAR in TST and about 2.5 BAR in Positive Doppio.

[twin]

I currently have a completely deflated All Mountain Sl sat on the bike and a head-scratching Te Bheag sat next to it... i

hehe. well, you gotta set the pressure in both the negativt and the positive chambers, then add the tst (compression dampening) and par (bottom out/progresstivity setting). i'm not 100% sure on how this works on a 06 having had 05, but i believe they are similar.

ok, step by step. what you want to do is pump air in the positive and negative chambers (one pulling down - the neg, one pushing up, the pos). when you can sit on the bike and get the proper/wanted level of sag you should play around with it till it feels ok when you compress it. meaning you should be satisfied when the sag is ok and it feels ok/smooth when you compress it. you can run it at a lot of different settings and still get it at say 13cm travel, but the field is much more limited if you want to get it at 13 cm, get the proper/wanted sag and have it feel a certain way. as mentioned before/later, try to get it to feel as close to what you want without doing too much with either the par or the tst.

as far as i know you can run the fork without any pressure at all in both the tst and the par. the tst should work quite nice without any air in it and with no air in the par just equals a more linear stroke with larger risk of bottoming out. in other words, the negative and positive chambers are the more interesting ones as these determine how the fork feels and is where the main effort should be located, while the other two are more for fine tuning it. and yes, the numbers in the marz guide can be ignored, except for any max of minimum figures.

the big no go, or no no, is if you have tst2 - an 07 invention i believe - and doing anything with the pressure in that chamber as it comes factory set at the appropriate level. since you have tst5, no prob.

and i might not be the best agent here as i sold both my 05 all mountain sl's rather fast and hardly used em had to get some 36 fox' due to eastetics and excessive brake dive. yes, i never really gave it much of a chance, but i wanted a fox. hehe.

[macadam]

Being an owner of 2 Zokes both with Doppio Air cartridge I must say I really like the system; it gives you so much flexibility.

To begin here are my pros and cons:

Pros:

• large positive air chamber (gives a more linear feeling and an fantastic mid-stroke feel)
• adjustable negative spring rate
• bottom out protection (PAR, yes it really works if you set it right)

Cons:

• hard to find the right setting out of the box
• one needs to take care of the cartridge. The PAR/Negative piston can be sticky if not lubricated!

The forks I have are:
   
1. '06 Marathon SL. Usually stays between 100 and 110mm. This has a TST5 damper. You can think of it as a mini All Mountain SL .
2. '06 Z1 SL. This has a RC2 cartridge and except that it is almost the same as your All Mountain SL (to be read: the same Doppio Air cartridge with similar air volume POS chambers).


Thus I will try to give you some hints based on the setup I have on the Z1. I'm almost 165lbs ready to ride.

Here are my settings:

-- right leg (TST leg) 20-25 psi
-- left leg POS 32-34 psi
-- PAR 0 psi !!!
-- left leg NEG >100 psi (depends on the travel I want)



First of all try to set the POS and NEG first. Remove all the pressure from all chambers (4 in total) and set the TST on the DH setting (fully open) and the rebound fully open. I use both the right leg, the one with the damper, and the left one. If you don't want to put too much pressure on the TST damper (there are some chances to blow the blander on super hard hits) you can put only pressure in the Doppio Air leg. I would not look at the NEG pressure since it depends on the amount of travel you want. Also you should bare in mind that the POS pressure will change if you change the NEG, since the POS air volume will decrease if you run the fork at shorter travel.

After you set the POS such that you get the SAG you want (at this point the first mm of travel are feel very harsh) you need to alternate the following:
   - add air to the NEG such that you get your wanted travel. How do you know how much travel you have? just measure the exposed stanchions. Zoke forks bottom seal to crown. On my Z1 I have ~154mm exposed stanchions only with POS pressure. As you start adding NEG pressure the stanchions will sink in the lowers.
   - compress couple of time the fork (yes with the pump attached) to equalise the pressures. If for example you want 140mm of travel, you need to stop pumping air to the NEG. Remember the NEG pressure you have at this point.
   - take out the pump and sit on the bike to see if you have the wanted SAG. You will see that the beginning of the trravel is a lot plusher now. If you have too much SAG you need to add a bit more pressure to the POS. Be careful that when you attach the pump you will lose pressure (when you attache the pump to the POS chamber you will loose for example 2-3 psi and when you attach to the NEG you will lose 30-40 psi. This is due to the size of the chambers and the low/hight pressure), so you need to redo the previous pressure.
   - repeat until you find the nice feel for the fork. At this point you can also try to put some psi in the TST leg.

After you are happy with the POS and NEG settings you can play with the PAR pressure to set the last 1/3 of the travel. I will keep the PAR pressure to 0. The PAR is a very small chamber even with the fork fully extended. 0 psi with the fork fully extended will be OK for the start. In fact I can't bottom neither of the forks with the PSI set to 0 psi! From time to time I run a negative pressure on the PAR to achieve full travel. Yes, you can run the PAR chamber like this. To achieve this I compress the fork and set the PAR to 0 PSI. When the fork will extend there will be negative pressure in the PAR (hmmm, same trick is done on the ROCO Air rear shocks ). Thus unless you are a super aggressive rider and do lots of jumps you don't need any pressure in the PAR.


I played a lot with the settings until I fond the sweet spot, so keep trying different settings. I don't my fork by SAG but by how it rumps up. Just to emphasise again. The POS will take care of the mid travel, the NEG will give you control of the beginning of the travel (well the POS is also involved by some degree) and the PAR will take care of the last 1/3 of your travel.   


There are some nice resources on the web on how to set the Doppio Air. A nice one is:
http://www.windwave.co.uk/documents/techinfo/marzocchitechinfo.html
and you need to look at:
http://www.windwave.co.uk/documents/techinfo/sl%20set%20up%20guide.pdf


Hope this helps,
Adrian

[Te Bheag]

Thanks Twin & Adrian. i have my head round this lovely fork now. Thanks to your advice and guidance I now have 140mm travel and a great feeling fork. It's all about the balance of the pressures in the 4 chambers and once I'd realised that the TST positive pressure needed to be very low it all fell (sagged?) into place. 

Many thanks!

Mods - would it be worth moving this thread to Technical? It'd be easier to find for people who want to set up their Zokes?

[Te Bheag]

Oh guru's... I have changed the oil in the non-TST leg, easy! But how the feck do I get the oil out of the Doppio leg??? Fork is riding really nicely BTW, all down to your help.

Alastair

[macadam]

The non-TST leg is the DoppioAir cartridge, there I guess you want to change the oil in the TST cartridge. Here is a very good reference for the All Mountian forks (better than I would explain ):

http://www.freewebs.com/warpweb/marzocchiam1tuning.htm

and here are the '06 marzocchi manuals (the service manuals :

 http://rapidshare.com/files/72206812/Marz_Technical_06.rar


Hope that this helps,
Adrian

[Te Bheag]

Cheers, that helps, I'm sure I had read somewhere that there is 40mil oil in each leg, but from what you say it's just the TST? So, I've already changed the TST oil (dirty!) and the job is done.

I'll take a look at the references. Thanks

Alastair

[Te Bheag]

Aha! I need a Shimano TL-LR10 lockring tool to remove the TST leg top, I can then drain and refill...

EDIT: whoops, got my legs mixed up, done the Doppio, easy to undo, just need to do the TST now...