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Author Topic: Commencal 09 Part 1: The new stuff.  (Read 15458 times)
steveb
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« on: June 07, 2008, 10:21:50 PM »



Commencal make a big deal out of the fact that they are based in Andorra, a quirky little country based in the middle of the Pyrenees mountains, meaning they have some amazing trails on which to test new bikes. With the Vallnord Bike park a short bike ride away from Commencal HQ they really are spoiled for prototype testing grounds, but what they’ve never mentioned is the fact that once you go slightly off the regular runs the trails bear a striking resemblance to those in the UK.

I’m not talking about the carefully manicured and dare I say sanitized singletrack that more and more UK trail centres are offering up, I mean proper natural trails, with mud (yes they have mud, lots of it!) rocks, off camber roots, pedally sections and steep sharp chutes. The types of trails that develop organically by riders finding new lines not by an army of trail pixies getting busy with the clinometers.


See, they have mud in Andorra. And hungover looking international racers ;-)

On a recent trip to Andorra to watch the Athertons dominate the entire World Cup racing weekend and see the new 09 line up we got a chance to ride with the Commencal development guys on the very trails that the bikes are tested on, most of the trails way “off piste” and all of them completely natural. To top it off, and to make things feel like home (Northern Ireland), it rained, a lot, and the trails were muddy, very muddy.

Commencals flagship suspension design called the Contact System was invented to give their bikes as much grip as possible, the logic being that more grips means you can go faster. After riding their trails, you get the point. Commencal say that whether your riding the new carbon XC race rig the “Skin” hardtail or the new design Supreme DH, ALL their bikes are built to be fast going down. The fact the aforementioned Skin has a “trail friendly” head angle is testament to this ethos. Again, ride their trails and that mentality makes sense.

Commencals are designed for fun. Their top of the line Atherton piloted Supreme DH is designed to get down the mountain fast, devastatingly fast. The CG inspired Furious is built to fly the tabletops and ride out the sketchiest of landings. The carbon on the new Skin is layered up to be stiff, efficient yet comfortable. But above all else, they’re all made for fun. With a Capital F.

Enough chit chat... The bikes....

The New Stuff Pt.1. The Skin

Commencal have been interested in carbon for some time, but they knew they didn't have enough experience to go it alone. Some time ago they approached one of the worlds leaders in Carbon frame manufacturing but got knocked back, the factory was too busy. The manufacturer in question rarely works with companies who approach them, they tended to hand pick the brands they work with and approach them. As a world leader with 25 years experience they can pick and choose they're partner brands.


A year on and the carbon specialist had an opening for a new brand, knowing Commencal were interested in carbon they approached them, the first fruits of their collaboration is the Skin. Those in the know knew Commencal had been working with the back stuff for a while now, but most, myself included, thought it was for a top secret 2010 project, so were taken a bit by surprise when pictures of the Skin first leaked out a few weeks ago.

Most people think of a carbon hardtail as a ultra lightweight, stiff and nimble race only hardtail, and whilst the Skin can be all that, it's still a Commencal, and Commencals are built for fun, so the frame has been carefully designed and the carbon laid up to be laterally as stiff as any carbon frame, but also compliant and not beat the hell out of the riders arse, the carefully shaped and tapered rear stays see to that!


"Tube To Tube" technology has been used on the frame opposed to the more common monocoque technique for several reasons: One because it's more compliant but mainly because it's easier to evolve the design. For a company just starting out in carbon design without the big R&D budget of the big brand names this means they can tweak the design without incurring big costs, meaning as riders feedback on the frame, Commencal can react.

Although initial feedback says they may well have hit the sweetspot first time round! In testing several local riders, with no affiliation to Commencal and no previous riding experience of the brand were recruited as testers. The riders had a background in XC race but also rode DH for fun. They were given the bikes to ride and to cut a long story short, they didn't want to return them!  They said the bikes rode exactly as you'd expect a carbon framed bike to ride: Fast, light and nimple, but they also couldn't believe how comfortable and staple the bikes were at speed when pointing down. This is down to customary Commencal slack head angle and compliant rear end. A winner then!

The Skin will come as two bikes, one spec'd with a balanced weight to price ratio, the other blinged to the max and priced accordingly. Also a frame only option will be available. Weights are approx. 21lb for the Skin 1, 23lb for the Skin2 and 2.5lb for the frame only.

The New Stuff Pt.2. The Super 4


Replacing the Meta 4 in the XC/Enduro category for 2009 is the Super 4. Actually to say it replaces the Meta 4 is a bit unfair as the bike shares almost all the key features, it's more an evolved Meta 4 than a replacement. Whilst the Meta 4 has always been a great bike, many commented that for a XC bike the frame is too bulky and the seat angle was too slack. The Super 4 addresses these issues and offers a few improvements in other places too.


The biggest change is the Contact System: It's still their, but reduced in complexity and so weight, whilst at the same time made stiffer thanks to a new one piece "linkage axle", which for 2009 appears on all the Meta range.

So, how does the Super 4 Contact System differ?

First off the two triangle linkage plates are smaller, quite a lot smaller, about 50%, this obviously saves weight but is also stiffer. The new one peice linkage axle also comes in to play here too. Previous the main linkage system consisted of the two larger trainagle plates and a big cross axle that was held in place by a bolt. Now the trainagle plates and the cross axle are all one piece cleverly locked in place by some fancy joints. All this means less weight and stiffer too. And it don't stop there.


Remember the horse shoe or "U" linkage that connected the rear swingarm to the traingle linkage plates? That's gone too. Now the rear chainstay connects direct to the triangle plates and have small pivots down at the drop outs, a la "faux bar linkage" bikes.   This is a really clever move, essentially the chainstays (which can't be done without) replace the Horse shoe linkage, again so saving weight. And thanks to the new one peice traingle plates, the back end remains as stiff as before even with a linkage introduced. Genius.

On a side note, the new Meta 5.5 also gets the new stiffer one peice traingle plates, and the contact system on the 5.5 remians the same in 09 as in 08, meaning they're retro fitable to all existing Meta 4's and 5's, right back to 2005. Cool or what?


The seat tube on the new Super 4 is steeper than the old Meta 4, but the head angle is the same, meaning the bike gets amazing climbing ability yet remains super stable on the downs. To keep things as solid as possible on the downs all Super 4 models come standard with over size bars and stem and custom valued rear shocks. Weights are down compared to the Meta 4's with the Super 4.1 at 26lb, the 4.2 at 27lb, the 4.3 at 29lb and the frame only at 5.5lb.

The New Stuff Pt.3. The Supreme

For 2009 both the Supreme DH and the Supreme Mini DH (now known simply as the "Supreme") have had a major makeover. Photos have been flying around the web for months but info has been thin on the ground...... No more!


Commencal still regard both bikes as DH bikes: One, the Supreme DH for those who ride to race, and race to win, on some of the toughest courses on the planet. With the Supreme (Mini DH) for those who ride to have fun, with maybe the odd local race thrown in.  Whilst most will agree with their intended use of the Supreme DH, the Supreme (Mini DH) has never been as easy to pigeon hole. Pictures on the Commencal Owners Club will prove that everyone sees the Supreme (Mini DH) as a different beast. Some have them built up as heavy duty all rounders, with air shocks front and rear, 2 chainrings (or even 3!) and lightish components, whilst others run duel crown forks, coils and full on DH parts.

Commencal recognize this, and have some clever specing cards up their sleeves.

For 2009 both bikes have had their centre of gravity lowered thanks to a redesign and dropping of the Contact System and the rear shock, a positive side effect of this is the seat tube is much longer meaning the Supreme (Mini DH rider can finally say good buy to the telescopic seatpost. Both bikes have also had their travel upped to 160mm and 200mm respectively. Shock ratios have been kept more or less the same thanks to longer strokes: Supreme - 200x57. Supreme DH - 240 x 76.5.


Otherwise the Supreme (Mini DH) remains the awesome machine it always has been, only the head angle has been slacked half a degree. BB size, rear axle spacing and frame weights remains the same. Not so with the Supreme DH, a whole raft of changes have ensured CG and the Athies have the machine to win races.


"Harness brake forces to improve traction and handling"

The biggest innovation on the Supreme DH is the rear brake mounts. You can move the rear brake caliper mount between 3 fixed points, essentially "rotating" the caliper forward of the axle. The forward most position offers most traction under hard braking and also encourages the rear of the bike to "squat". Ideal on descents as it effectively slackens out the angles at a time when you need it most: Hard braking. The rear most position is for smooth and fast tracks that are not too steep. In this position the bike behaves as it always did under braking.

Both the Athies and CG were blown away with this tunable feature. It's a bit complex and does require quite an understanding of how the bike performs in certain conditions and the effects of the rear brake on this performance, but once you've got your head around it, it gives you a clear speed advantage.

Also new for this year on the Supreme DH is a 83mm BB shell, slacker head angle and slightly lower BB. The 150mm rear axle and adjustable head angle remain unchanged.



Both the Supreme and Supreme DH will be available in the usual 2 bike builds and frame only options, with the Supreme also coming as framset including Fox 36 forks, LG1 guide, Thompson seatpost and stem and headset.


And finally......

In 2007 Commencal dropped everything that was not mountain bike. In 2009 they're returning to the road in the form of the new  Babylon hybrid. No real details exist as yet, other than the fact that if it does see the light of day in the 2009 range it won't be until well into 2009! More as we get it.

Additional info

In 2009 all frames with come with a headset and Thompson seatpost.

Prices for 2009 are as yet unconfirmed, reading between the lines we're expecting price rises between 10 and 20% over the 2008 equivalent. Final prices will be announced on 16th July.

Full specs will be online soon.

Coming next.....

2009 Meta 5.5, Meta 666, Absoluts, Combi's and Normals and all the rest of the new seasons range.









« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 10:23:56 PM by steveb » Logged

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Graham T
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2008, 11:09:51 PM »

Nice, will be looking at the replaceable rear for the meta when that is available
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grgos
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2008, 07:16:38 AM »

Great article SteveB, I guess the trip was a success

agree with ian1775 i like 2009  bikes- BTW why is CG clean   Cool and you dirty steveb  Grin
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steveb
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2008, 08:57:28 AM »

Thanks guys. I'm no journalist so it's never too easy doing this stuff. I'll be doing part two in the next day or two.

The pic was taken by one of the Commencal guys the day after the DH finals. CG's bike shop is right next to the start of the gondola lift, after my first run I headed back to get an uplift and bumped into him, he was very hungover.

Some bike builds come with the Joblin, more in the part two article.
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2008, 11:31:35 PM »

Nice report Smiley
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twin
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2008, 11:57:15 AM »

yeah, nice report, though the question i've been wondering about for months was left unanswered; ow much does the new supreme frames weigh? hehe
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lvnyk
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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2008, 12:08:50 PM »

Otherwise the Supreme (Mini DH) remains the awesome machine it always has been, only the head angle has been slacked half a degree. BB size, rear axle spacing and frame weights remains the same.
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« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2008, 05:11:04 PM »

Ooh cryptic, are you not allowed to say who makes the Skin frame? Merida/Giant or someone?
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twin
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« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2008, 06:03:11 PM »

well yes lvnyk, i noticed that sentence - but it is almost 100% certain that the weight is slightly different than the current and thus i'm wanting a specific measurement - not "it weighs more or less the same..". If it turns out the frame weighs in at 3.9kgs, then my bad. If you've read my previous post on the matter on here you'd noticed that i'm a bit of a weight weenie so measurements like "more or less the same" won't do (especially after a few months of waiting for it).

That being said, the same weight, but added travel and even more refined suspension action, as well as the bombproofness and stiffness we've all come to love, would make it tolerable, if still not terribly impressive Wink Nah, it's not too bad i guess
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steveb
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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2008, 07:03:56 PM »

They're DH bikes, if "more or less" ain't good enough, then really you wanna be questioning if you really want a DH frame.

And realistically, until I have one in the flesh to weigh, "more or less" is about as good as it gets. More or less. ;-)
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« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2008, 11:36:13 PM »

with all the fuss about the new products one would to some degree expect vital imformation like weight being included in the overall information package (unless of course it's not a selling point or strong point of the product). By all means, i'm no xc'er when it comes to being a weight weenie, but surely dh'ers are a bit concerned about weight too. If not, why does for instance sc care enough to cut nearly 2lbs of their v10 frame while it still being as good, or prob better, than the old version? Whoever heard of 2lbs mars bars iain1775? Wink hihi.

The reason i care about the frame weight is due to the fact that it is the one thing that actually determines the overall weight of a bike - as specs weighs more or less the same anyway if you want to get say xt or xtr type spec. I pretty much hate heavy bikes, though i guess that's more of a intellectual than experience induced feeling.

And yes, i def want a dh frame/bike, but not one that weighs 20 fekking kilos Wink

quit being a weight weenie? Never! (stated like in some monty python sketch or something - the never part that is) I'm only a ww up to say xt or xtr level, then i loose interest as things are light enough Wink Frames though are a different matter... Wink And to make it abundantly clear, i do not care if there's a 50 gram difference between the frames, i just wanted a specific numeric value as the official weight as it is the part about the new frame i've been wondering the most about. (and yes, too be honest, i kinda forgot the "weight will stay the same part" from the article.. hehe, i guess my reply above was somewhat dumb, but oh well, we aren't all perfect are we Wink )
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steveb
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« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2008, 07:44:46 AM »

well, assuming the weight of the old is too much for you, and the new one weights more or less the same, I'd say the new one will weight too much for you too. Other than that I'm not really sure what I can say!
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« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2008, 10:27:30 AM »

with all the fuss about the new products one would to some degree expect vital imformation like weight being included in the overall information package (unless of course it's not a selling point or strong point of the product). By all means, i'm no xc'er when it comes to being a weight weenie, but surely dh'ers are a bit concerned about weight too. If not, why does for instance sc care enough to cut nearly 2lbs of their v10 frame while it still being as good, or prob better, than the old version? Whoever heard of 2lbs mars bars iain1775? Wink hihi.

Well, to their credit, they've estimated a weight for the new carbon frame. The sort of person after a carbon hardtail may well be watching the grams. They're better than most brands in that department.

Take the new Gary Fisher Superfly, pimped as being their brand new superlight 29r. No where on their site does it actually mention the weight, bit shoddy as it's the #1 selling point. Trek's carbon 9.9 SSL, weight? No idea. Cannondales, reknown for being light, weight? Same again, who knows. They used to have some tosh on their site about the weight varying between models.

In a way it's tough though, the quoted weights for the Metas don't seem even vaguely realistic, it'll be a small, on the moon or something... with no pedals, people change pedals so we'll assume their new ones have no mass. Much like other brands bend the truth a bit it pushes everyone else to lie to compete. Shame really.

I'm a gram counting weight weenie on my Stumpy hardtail, not my Meta though  Smiley Sometimes it's the only quantitative way of comparing 2 bikes, with matching travel, specs, shape etc.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 10:33:02 AM by Toasty » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2008, 10:29:54 AM »

Whoever heard of 2lbs mars bars iain1775? Wink hihi.

http://www.pimpthatsnack.com/project.php?projectID=279&pageID=1
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twin
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« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2008, 12:12:59 PM »

well, assuming the weight of the old is too much for you, and the new one weights more or less the same, I'd say the new one will weight too much for you too. Other than that I'm not really sure what I can say!

well, unless my recollection is a bit worse than usual you've voiced similar opinions so... Wink hehe

As i've mentioned before, i'm not terribly worried about the weight of my frame anymore. Sure, i wish it was a bit lighter, but it's not like it's terribly heavy either. My current rig is doing pretty good in terms of weight and feels quite awesome too be honest. Especially when one takes into consideration how versatile it is the weight is really quite decent. After bombing down the same trail with my prophet and supreme i've actually started to wonder about whether or not a dh bike can get too light. I just seem to remember the supreme feeling even better than the prophet (which is very capable downhill too), though i guess a lot of it is due to the geo. It still feels more planted and i'm wondering if the extra weight (about 3 kg) might be a part of it too. I dunno.

All i know is that my current mini is capable as hell, relatively lightweight and it looks pretty damn good too Smiley In a perfect world the new frame would be even better, including significantly lighter, but if not i'll settle for even better Wink hehe. After all, a dh ready bike weighing in at roughly 15kg isn't that bad at all. That being said, did i mention i love my supreme? Just because i bitch about the weight doesn't mean i'm not happy with it. I'm just pointing out the two areas it could improve; weight and materials. And yes, if i was to build up a full blown dh rig the weight "limit" or goal of the build would be somewhere in the 16-17.5kg range, though sensible parts would be used. "Unfortunately" though, the mini is for now way too capable a bike to warrent a specific dh bike too  Grin Man, i'm really really really looking forward to some resort riding with my supreme.

and, nice mars bar man. Touche. Gave me a decent laugh Wink I guess i should've  written "whoever heard of a 2lbs mars bar you'd bring along when riding your bike?".
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 12:15:10 PM by twin » Logged
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